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Paul E. Rantau | paulerantau~AT~yahoo~DOT~com
@Devout Muslim of Australia, I didn’t personally make the claim that there were 7 versions of the Qur’an during the life time of the Prophet! I only repeated the statement made by many a Muslim scholar and recorded, among others, in Imam Bukhari Vol.6 Hadith #510. To get the widest possible information you could easily Google “7 and 20 versions of the Holy Qur’an” (Do you realize that the collection of ahadeeth began about 200 years after the death of the Prophet of Islam?)

You stated that ‘only the Qur’an was guaranteed to remain unchanged”. Well, is this your own belief or is it what you have heard from your Imam at the Mosque? Both of you need to read Al A’nam 6:115 ‘Perfected are the words your Lord in truth and justice. None can change His words! He hears all andknows all!’

According to Al Tabari (as well as other Islamic scholars) Allah’s Words include the Torah, Zabur and the Injeel. It makes sense that Allah’s Words are to be protected by Allah Himself. Besides, you know that the Qur’an is also charged with the protection of the previously revealed Scriptures (Torah, Zabur and Injeel). You may recall that all scriptures (not just the Qur’anaccording to the Qur’an are facsimile of Lauh Mahfudz – the Heavenly Tablet kept in Firdaus by Allah. Thus, accusations of revisions, changes and corruptions of the Bible (Old and New Testaments) means accusation against Allah and the Holy Qur’an, not to mention the corruption of the Heavenly Tablet!”

Muslims believe that the classical Arabic (the language of the Qur’an) is perfect, in fact most Muslims believe that it is a heavenly language. That’s why every prayer, ritual in Islam has be done in this perfect language. Even questions and answers between the angels and dead Muslims are conducted in this perfect and heavenly language. The fly in the ointment is this: there are more than 200 mere human words: Persian, Ethiopic, Syriac and Aramaic and even Greek words borrowed by the perfect language!!! Why did a perfect, heavenly language need to borrow human, imperfect words? Why, indeed?

Examples: firdaus, janna, jahanam, hourin, Injeel (‘au agelion’ = ‘good news’ (Gk) mispronounced by Arab Christians into ‘Injeel’). In fact the word QUR’AN is a derivative of a Syriac word QERYAN, namely a lectionary = a list of readings of verses of the Bible!


Paul
11 July 2011 - Singapore

Devout Muslim
@Paul Rantau,
‘I believe Muhammad himself stated that there were 7 (seven) versions of the Qur'an whilst he was alive!‘
How can you make such a claim? All the hadiths (sayings) of the Prophet have undergone a vigorous process of to ensure its authenticity. That couldn’t even be passed as the weakest hadith.
Yes, we believe the Tawrah, Zabur and Injeel were books of Allah revealed to the prophets Musa, Dawood and Isa respectively, but the Quran was the only book that was was guaranteed to remain unchanged. The Quran serves to show what has been altered in the previous books.
So, in accusing the Bible of being changed is in no way accusing Allah or the Quran.
You also admit that there are changes in language and that different versions in language are written to accommodate these changes. However, as any interpreter will know, this imparts the understanding and opinions of the translator on it and will result in changes. The Quran has been preserved in classical Arabic. Anyone who understands classical Arabic will be amazed at the linguisitical miracle of the Quran, which came from an illiterate man, Muhammad. There are many documented changes in the bible(s), the Quran has remain unchanged, as evident in the existence of the Ijaazah, continuous recitation chain up to the Prophet Muhammad. I can guarantee how vigorous this is, as I am studying for it myself. A whole topic, Tajweed, is dedicated to perfecting pronunciation of the quran so that it’s meaning is preserved.
I also despise your previous comment that Muhammad ordered the slaughter the Jews of Yathrib. After forming a truce and a pace that they would guard Medina’s rear during the battle of the ditch, they betrayed the Muslims and assisted the enemies of Islam. Nontheless, Islam prevailed, as a punishment for the near devastation they caused, the Prophet asked the leader of Yathrib for the punishment the Jewish religion has for such betrayal. They answered with death. And that is why the true cause of the death of the people of Yathrib. It can be seen that the Prophet Muhammad attempted to preserve the dignity of the jews but allowing them to adhere to their own laws.
I understand your dedication to your religion warrants you to furiously defend what you believe in, as I have done having seen your website and comments. I also admire your knowledge of Islam, and would request that you attempt to take a less polarised look at Islam. I look at Christianity, and see its benefits, but see Islam as my calling. Nonetheless, both religions teach many good things that many people throughout the world would serve themselves and society well to adhere to.
2 July 2011 - Australia

Paul E. Rantau | paulerantau~AT~yahoo~DOT~com
@Devout Muslim of Australia (like most uninformed Muslims) claaims that the Christian scriptures have been altered, changed consequently they are not reliable and trustworthy. As usual Muslims make this allegation without giving any proofs.

They often mention that there are many versions of the Bible. They donot realize tha the many versions of the Bible are basically changes in the language. As we know that over time languages change. To remain readable and thus understandable, every now and then the language of the Bible has to be revised to suit the current language. NO CHANGES have been made to the teachings, the doctrine of Christianity!

Devout Muslim and all of those Muslims who accuse Crhistians, the church and the church fathers of changing the Bible, forget the following verses of the Qur’an.

1. Musa’s Taurat, Daud’s Zabur and Isa Al Masih’s Injeel are Books revealed by Allah;
2. The purity of these previously revealed books is protected by Allah himself;
3. The Qur’an was revealed to confirm the truth of these previously revealed books;
4. The Qur’an was also charged by Allah to act as the prortector (‘wa muhainan alaihi’) of the Taurat, Zabur and injeel!

Muslims who accuse that the Bible (‘Injeel’) has been changed, unwittingly accuse Allah and the Qur’an of failing to protect the scriptures.
22 June 2011 - Singapore

Paul E. Rantau | paulerantau~AT~yahoo~DOT~com
@Devout Muslim: "The Quran has remained unchanged since it's revelation".
I believe Muhammad himself stated that there were 7 (seven) versions of the Qur'an whilst he was alive!

There have been old Qur'ans discovered and some of them are quite different from the Qur'an you have today. There are ancient exemplars of the Qur'an kept in the British Museum, in Topkapi Museaum in Istambul and one ancient on in Cairo. What is truly interesting about these copies of the Islamic Holy Scripture is that each one is different from the other.

You may google 'Qur'an grave' located by German anthropologist back in 1972. Again these old Qur'ans show differences from the present day edition.

Even if a holy scripture has been preserved since its revelation centuries ago, if the sripture contains teachings, injunctions and examples that are not good, not civilized, not tolerant towards other faiths, and even misogynistic should one worry about it?
12 June 2011 - Singapore

Devout Muslim
I am quite dissapointed that such websites such as this have to go to such lengths to try to try to dissuade people from Islam. If someone is enlightened enough to do some soul searching, they would know that it is futile to get their information from propoganda styled websites like this. I challenge anyone who is sincerely looking for the truth to remove all preconceptions and compare the Religions from the Holy Books.
Just as a side note, the fact the Bible has been changed by man (different versions with some inconsistencies) brings up questions whether even this is valid. The Quran has remained unchanged since it's revelation.
Despite this, if you attempt to read the Quran or other holy book with a existing bias, why bother? Your opinion will not be changed unless you are sincerely seeking the truth.
11 June 2011 - Australia

Webmaster Comments:
  As long as your assmptions are wrong, your results will be wrong. I don't think you undestand either Islam or Christianity.

Paul E. Rantau
Leslie, many Muslims are in denial that the root cause of many of the religious conflicts in the world is Allah’s injunction to fight and defeat those who do not submit to Allah and his Rasul. The command is to be adhered to until there’s no tumult, no DARUL HARB and that Islam reigns supreme!
The Qur’an tells the faithful that fighting is allowed only to defend one’s home and one’s belief, and yet from the onset Muhammad since the ‘hijrah’ attacked, plundered and enslaved & raped every tribe and nation that did not accept him and Islam!
The Jews of Yathrib, the pagan Arabs, the Christian Arabs, the Persians, Egyptians, North Africans, southern Europeans, Indians and many many more cultures, high civilizations were annihilated by the Muslim hordes. These tribes and nations never invaded Mekkah or Madina - they never attacked the newly established Islamic umah!
Muslims attacked and occupied the Christian Jerusalem and yet to this day most Muslims are of the belief, haqul-yakin that the Christians, the Crusaders started the long drawn conflict and that is why Muslims abhor the word ‘crusade’ and call anyone they oppose especially the West as the Crusaders. Muslims tend to blame others for any conflict, poverty and backwardness they suffer from. Each school of thought in Islam, each nation of Islam even opposes and fights any other group of Muslims who does not subscribe to its brand of Islam!
In Indonesia the nation with the biggest Muslim population where traditionally people of different faiths lived harmoniously for centuries, in the last 30 years the virulent virus of Islamic fundamentalism financed by outside Islamists has made the minorities Hindus, Buddhists and Christians suffer tremendously. More than 1,200 churches have been ransacked, burnt to the ground – Christian congregations have been prevented from attending Sunday (even Christmas) services. Christians and their pastors have been brutally attacked by devout Muslims and the Police (almost all Muslims) and the government usually just watch the ill treatment of the ‘infidels’ , the kafirun by the followers of Muhammad and Allah!
In the last few months the people of Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Syria, etc. have shown their disgust of the many decades of oppression by their Islamic leaders. All of these decades Muslims have blamed Israel and Mossad, the USA and CIA, the ‘evil’ West for their sufferings. I hope they realize that their predicament – poverty, lack of freedom, superstitions, and backwardness has been due to the inhumane and dictatorial rules by the leaders, that is sanctioned by Islam. Islam does not allow opposition, democracy, freedom of speech, equality of rights of women because it’s a heavenly religion and it says so!
Well, Leslie you may want to brush up on the Poll Tax (Jizyaa’), the so-called protection tax to non-Muslims, the Pact of Omar and the many many rules that are based on the Qur’an and designed to oppress people who are not interested in adhering to Islam. In this day and age where the internet and freedom of expression, we the non-Muslims have a wonderful and effective way of showing how Islam is not a religion of peace, in the hope that good Muslims will stop being beastly to non-Muslims. In the process, insha allah, Muslims will be able to live peacefully with others and be part of the civilized humanity of the 21st century!

PAUL
8 June 2011 - Singapore

Leslie
I am in absolute disbelief by this website. I honestly thought it was a joke at first. What a shame, what ignorance. As a Muslim I would never be so hurtful and insulting toward a Christian brother or sister. I am deeply saddened. I feel for the oppression your people suffer at the hands of others that claim my same faith, but open your eyes to the bigger picture, Allah's word.
7 June 2011 - US

Webmaster Comments:
  Truth always hurts.

ALI MAMUAL | alimamualshafie~AT~yahoo~DOT~com
There are many reasons why Allah cannot be a God:

1) Quran shows no signs of being a divine book.
This can be subdivided into:

a) There are no miracles in Quran, and thus no sign that men or man could not have created this book.

b) Instead, Quran has wrong science in it, and wrong moral ideas.

c) If Quran was truely from God, it would contain knowledge that we are not aware of yet. You think Quran has science? Read about the pre-Islamic scientific World and the wonderful scientists who were born before Islam came. If Quran wanted to convey science, why did it not convey all the science we know of? Instead, it conveyed either common sense, OR ideas stolen from Greek scientists. There is every reason I can give to tell you how Mohammed stole from Greeks. Remember, you do not have to be educated to hear a scientists knowledge from far-away lands, and lie to people around you to claim the scientific knowledge as "revealed" from God!
Thus the claim that Mohammed was not educated and could not have known all this, is FALSE!
d) A real God would not allow his important message to be taken in a wrong way:
Quran is supposed to be an important message for humanity, rioght. If Quran was an important message to humanity from a real God, its Creator would have made SURE that the message would not be taken in a wrong way. The day is coming when more and more people are hating Islam. Assuming that Quran was from God, it is unfortunate to be born in such an era, where this important message of God is being hated so much.
Would the real creator (if he exists) allow any of His dear creation to be born in a place where His message was being hated so much, and thus not receive the message in the correct context? Ofcourse not.
The message of a Real God to his creation, would be very important and there would be NO one who would be able to tarnish the clean image of his message.
We have sane people finding faults with Quran and talking about using it as toilet paper. Would a real God allow this to happen to his message?

Not if he thought his message was important!
God wants to test us? For what? Are we the guineu pigs of the Universe? No, we're not! God doesnt even have any rights on us!

e) God would never declare his previous messages to be false, and only the latest one(Islam) to be true.
A real God would NEVER say this:

"And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!" -Quran 48:13

This verse is clearly talking about Islam and not just any Messenger or religion. There is another verse which says that "no religion will be accepted of man except Islam". (3:85).

f) A real God would not violate our rights.

Besides the above reasons, there is another logical explanation of why Allah cannot be a God.
Allah is a God who becomes offended if you abuse or disobey him. What kind of weak God is that?

Here is an explanation, of why:

1) God cannot be offended when man abuses him. 2) Allah cannot be a true god. I will present two approaches to prove this. First, I will prove by logical reasoning that Allah cannot be a God. Then, I will present an analogy to support my claim further.

2) Logical Reasoning

God is supposed to be an infinitely powerful being. It is not possible to have any power or influence over an infinitely powerful being. It is not possible to effect God in any way.
I cannot make God angry, niether can I make him happy. If I could make God happy or angry, it would mean that I have some control over God's emotions. Thus, I would have some control over God. But such a God, whose emotions (anger) I can control, cannot be a God. When even a billion blackholes, which have the power to bend light, due to enormous gravitational attraction, cannot effect God, then can I, a 65 Kg man, effect God in any way? No.Now, let us study Allah, the God of Muslims. A muslim is told to worship Allah and praise him. Allah created man to worship him (Q:51.56). We know that Allah will punish all those who dont believe in him Quran 48.13 "And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!" Thus, if Allah will punish anyone who does'nt believe in him, he will also punish anyone who abuses him. But if Allah punishes anyone who abuses him, it means that Allah is offended when a human abuses him. This means that a human being can offend Allah, by either disobeying his orders, or abusing him. If a human can offend Allah, it means that the human being has control over Allah's emotions. A human being has control over Allah's anger and thus has partial control over Allah. But we know from our earlier discussion, that a being cannot be a God, if its emotions can be controlled by a human being.
Note: Abusing another human is a different matter, because a human can be effected by abuse, since she/he is not infinitely powerful, as God is. It makes sense to say that if God existed, he would provide justice to all those who were abused in any way, and would give punishment to those who abused the humans. BUT, God would not be angry at the criminals. The role of a good judge is to provide justice, without being effected by hate or anger, induced by the criminal. If Allah can become angry due to a human abusing him, the rule of Allah being the strongest entity is violated. Conclusion: Allah, the God of Muslims, can not be a God. Now I will present an analogy to make this explanation more clear.


Analogy

A guy whom we shall call 'X', is doing a study on social behaviors, decides to do an experiment. He wants to see the reaction of abuse on different types of people. He goes out on a street to meet people and chooses one guy whom he calls 'A'.
X says some verbal abuse and racial remarks to 'A'. But 'A' is a cool-headed guy and does not mind the abuse. Instead, he thinks to himself, that this guy must be insane. 'A' does not let his anger grow and just looks on to 'X' with amusement and raises his eyebrows and then ignores ‘X’, thinking its nothing to be serious about. X notes down the reaction of 'A' in his research journal and walks away to find another guy, whom he calls 'B'. Now, ‘B’ is a hot headed guy, who can become angry on the smallest of things. ‘X’ calls him some verbal abuse along with racial remarks. ‘B’'s anger shoots up very quickly and his blood begins to boil. He starts abusing ‘X’ in return, making even bigger and more vulgar abuse to ‘X’, telling him to '#$^@ off'. ‘B’ starts coming near ‘X’ and it looks like hes ready to punch X in the face. Before ‘B’ can do that, ‘X’ runs away for his life and disappears.
His study is complete. Which person, 'A' or 'B', has the greater character strength ? If you were to choose a leader for a group, who would you choose between 'A' and 'B' ? The vast majority of people would chose 'A' as the leader, who has more strong character, and has proven to be more resistant to attacks than ‘B’. Lets transfer this example to God’s. Suppose there are two God's.
One of them is God ‘B’, who is a sensitive God and for him, its easy to become angry when a human abuses him. So down on the planet, there is a man who abuses God B. God B becomes angry and he plans to punish the human for what he did. The God plans to burn the human and give him all sorts of pain when he dies. The other God, called God A, is cool-headed and when He sees a human being abuse Him, He doesn't mind, because his ego is not so sensitive as that of God B. God A loves humans unconditionally and infinitely. When He sees the human abuse Him, he thinks to himself that this human might be crazy and he forgives that human. He knows that abuse doesn't effect him. He still loves the human, and he knows that a human cannot harm Him in any way. When the human will die, he will see for himself, how loving God is.
So God A says to himself : “Nevermind, he's a human, my loved creation, it doesn’t matter to me if he believes in me or not. His belief or disbelief does not effect ME because I have infinite power over all things. I cannot be effected by even a million black holes, let alone a 65 kg 5’6” tall human, who will live only 70 years.” Which of the Gods, A or B, is more strong and loving ? Which of God do you think rules the universe?
A large majority of the people would choose God 'A', the one who is not affected by human abuse or love and loves his creation infinitely. If Allah is infinite in power, he is infinite in strength of personal character. If Allah can become angry due to a human abusing him, the rule of Allah being the strongest entity is violated.

Conclusion:

God, if exists, does not and cannot become angry when a human praises/abuses him. Thus, Allah, the god of Muslims, who can be offended by abuse, can NOT be a true
1 June 2011 - TOGO

Paul E. Rantau | paulerantau~AT~yahoo~DOT~com
Chinoy, we non-Muslims must accept the fact that many Muslims are so brain-washed and consequently brain dead. These people cannot think beyond what they’ve been indoctrinated about. Even if a Muslim is well educated, part of their brain continues to believe that:
1. The Qur’an contains all scientific knowledge – of the past, the resent and even the future. They choose to ignore that practically everything that have been invented and have benefited mankind in the last 1,00 years have been invented by non-Muslims and especially non-Arabs.
2. Muhammad was a perfect exemplar of human kind. Again they choose to forget that he ordered the brutal killings of hundreds of Jews of Yathrib. He ordered the murder of a number of individuals who criticized him, including an old female poet.
3. He annihilated the defenceless Jews and Arabs who would not accept the ‘religion of peace’
4. He made it a law the plunder of anyone, any tribe that opposed him and his cut-throats. This included the women and children who he traded as (sex) slaves. He, of course, was authorized by his Allah to get 20% of the war-booty!
5. Muslims will readily accuse non--Muslims as worshipers of graven images. Yet they ignore the fact that: (a) Muslims throughout the world proudly display the symbol of the Moon god (Crescent moon and a star) atop their mosques; (b) When they go on the Haj (pilgriage to Mecca) the faithfuls would raise their hands, saying:’We’ve come in response to your invitation!’ thefact is they salute the Ka’aba – the structure draped in black cloth that was the centre of idol worship. (c) The pilgrim will do their utmost to kiss the Black Stone (meteorite) that was the object of worship by the pagan Arabs.
6. Muslims believe that the Qur’an is written in a perfect, heavenly language,which is the classical Arabic. They ignore that around 200 ordinary words (not heavenly) have been borrowed into the Qur’an from ordinary human languages such as Ethiopean, Persian, Syriacs and even Hebrew.
So, Chinoy don’t bother debating with most Muslims. They are not interested in exchanging ideas, they just want you to submit (‘islam’) totheir illogical set of believes. Let them wallow in their ignorance.
Paul
28 May 2011 - Singapore

logicalthinker
Islam along with christianity along with judaism are all made up fake religions. that stole bunch of ideas from Hinduism. which according to researchers is the oldest knowledge form about GOD that exists. hinduism is not a religion like the others its is knowledge.
24 May 2011

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